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 Camden's confoundations

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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:48 am

First question: I go to Iowa State University, and the RC club i'm in (consists of me and two seniors haha) takes a drive to Des Moines (35 minutes) every Wednesday for the races. Those guys have at least 5 cars a person. The only reason I was willing to buy the 1/10 was cuz nothing was broken and from what I saw during races, the buggies were the most durable.

Second question: At the moment it has a Traxxas 2018 servo, and a JR R125 FM 27.195 mhz gray crystal RX and a XR2i TX. (did I mention it came with a controller and rx? Cool

I was looking at putting a Velineon or Tacon 540 http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m213-3660-3000kv-8t.html http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m211-3660-3500kv-7t.html or 550 brushless in it, with a waterproof ESC if I can find one big enough. The RX can stay for now, as I don't have a 2.4ghz TX for ground vehicles, just my DX5e.
The current gear that would connect to the motor spur appears to be a 81 tooth, with a 2:1 reduction from that to the rear wheels.
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:44 am

If you plan on racing you need a sensored brushless system i would stay away from the traxxas vxl system it will destroy your transmission quickly as will the tacon motor in addition you would only be aloud to race in open where you will get run over.
Only sensored brushless will make smooth low end take offs that will be easy on the plastic gears of the transmission. If your clutch and ball diff are set right it should need a diff rebuild every few races in stock spec class but if you run a high turn sensored mod motor or a sensorless brushless expect a transmission rebuild every time you race it.
if you are not planning on routine rebuilds and if sensored brushless is too expensive another great alternative is a 17 turn brushed motor with an open endebell with adjustable timing it makes smooth power without wrecking the internals of the car so far as your servo it will work

once you have a motor system and it drives pick up some pinion gears to dial it in my old b4 was running 14/87 pinion spur ratio with a 15 turn brushed motor and 19/81 for a brushless castle 4600

depending on the class and track surface you plan to run in i would also ask a few racers to see what tires are hooking up

so far as how to tune your car to make driving easier i would follow the stock spec cars to see what adjustments they are making or better yet ask them if they have a set up sheet.

if nobody is willing to help, witch happens sometimes heres the order most people follow when tuning a track car to a new track

Tires, gearing, ball differential and slipper adjustment, spring tension, shock oil, droop distance, camber, front toe in, rear toe in, center of gravity, wing type, lead chassis balance.

stock class stops here most of the time open mod class racers will keep the list going with

tire balancing cutting the outer row of knobbies off tires to give less rear side bite if the car traction rolls
sway bars, brushless motor rotor diameter choice, hard coated aluminum pinion gears, shock matching with a droop gauge to make the car more balanced, lead stick on weights to further balance the car on the ground, polished hinge pins and a matching hinge pin reamer, transponder shock mounting with foam and lots of other expensive complex stuff you wont need to worry about

now that i wrote a book lol.... hope this helps some Laughing

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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:38 pm

Haha, yeah that does help me a lot. So stay away from sensorless, and ask the pros what they use and if they have a spec sheet Razz

When I get enough time and money to look into it, I will.

Are you sure I shouldn't go sensorless? http://www.bigsquidrc.com/venom-v540-3300-kv-80-amp-waterproof-brushless-review/

This buggy is going to be a basher racer, if that makes any sense XD.


In other news, Somebody stole my USB key!!! Evil or Very Mad Shocked Crying or Very sad No

And it contains all the Solidworks files for my bot. pale
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:26 pm

watch out for big squid he claims hes independent of the hobby industry as an unbiased review but with hobbytown products he swings the way fox news does with republicans and food for thought venom does make some fantastic products and has the industries best customer service when it comes to batteries but they havent put out a brushless system in a while the last stuff they sold were re badge'd hobbywing systems that were marked up 60 dollars if you want cheap consider hobbyking they make some fantastic sensored motors and i have seen many many people beat the snot out of them so far as speed controls i wouldent trust hobbyking as far as i could kick it.

sensorless is more durable than sensored systems in most instances and cheaper too but its also the hardest on the gears and axles and on some tight tracks makes it impossible to drive smooth laps.

for bashing you will do great with sensorless just be weary for when it comes time to put it on a track you may find yourself in the wall or upside down a lot.

why no computer backup for usb doodly ?
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:06 pm

No computer backup because I didn't have dropbox until recently, and hadn't thought to back anything up on there until after it got stolen.

So you're saying get a Hobbyking sensored brushless, then where will I find a nice waterproof-able ESC to go with it?
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:02 am

I would avoid the hobbyking badged ESCs but I haven't had any problems with the Turnigy badged ESCs they sell.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:21 am

I'll look more into it once my bot gets running again.

Got some micro DEANS!


Dunno If I should get a few more to put on the batteries or what.

Also, I just realized my bot only failsafes the weapon when I lose com.
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:07 pm

Micro deans are nice looks like you have little room for those too lol
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:19 pm

Just need to find some sandpaper, and they tightly squeeze in between the battery and top plate cheers

Also, the main reason my weapon motor went kablooey:



It appears one of the windings wasn't even getting power. Can I fix it? well, I need sandpaper for that too lol Rolling Eyes


Extreme makeover required. This time, now that everything is frayed so bad it scares electrical guys to look at it, I'm going to shorten the cables to perfect lenght, then stop touching them.


Every cable is now routed (minus the motor wires) cheers And if you notice, I planned to add a switch. Unfortunately, I left it at home, so I can't do that until I go back in October.


Methinks this will work! Very Happy
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:10 pm

you need some good 60/40 solder those joints look cold.

as for the motor wires i use hydrochloric acid to strip the epoxy off of the wires to make solder joints

you should try to get all of the motor wires soldered and not like one or two Laughing

your wire layout looks good and a little secret to lose some weight would be to identify polarity with the motor wires and toss the plugs and hard wire them to the esc.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 05, 2012 10:30 pm

Ok...for the JR connectors, It appears un-crimping them will be too difficult for my set of tools. However, I already cut the ESC connection, so no turning back there XD

I use 60/40 solder on everything...I didn't solder those leads.

On another note, there is a short somewhere on the left motor ESC, and the tiny 5-pin PCB or whatever it's called on the board gets hot when it shorts out - simply moving the ESC around causes this.


.....FFS As soon as I take it apart to test it, it works perfectly! WTF little bot!! GRRRR!!!Evil or Very Mad CURSE YOU MURPHY's LAW!!!
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:02 am

sounds like good fun! cheers

the servo leads aren't too bad if you have a sharp knife tip and a set of pliers they come apart surprisingly easy once you release the catch from the servo plug housing.

so far as your esc i would say its scrap if there's anything on the board you cannot solder.

also it looks kind of like your esc wires melted a little or did they get crushed?

so once you get the esc, motor wires, failsafe sorted out will it be combat ready?
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:09 am

Yes, however I would like to sharpen and harden the shell and teeth first. Also, nearly every wire is both crushed, rubbed, melted, and cut, because of how much I've been abusing the electrical system Laughing

A simple fix to most of this is shorten the wires, because most of the bad parts are near the tips thankfully.

As for the ESC, there isn't a short in the board itself, but rather somewhere along the wires connecting it to the battery, I checked the leads on the ESC itself and they are perfectly fine. I checked the leads going to the battery, and half of the tiny wires coming from the black lead are not soldered, I believe this is because I literally almost exclusively pull on the wires, and with at least 10 lbs of force... However, there is no longer any discernible short that I can see, because it works perfectly when it's taken apart. Mad


Upgrades:

  • AT2206 1500kv 25gm Brushless Motor for the weapon (Atm though, it is only sold with the venus airplane package.
  • AR 6115 RX (It's about 6mm shorter, 1mm skinnier, 2mm thinner, and a few grams lighter than the ar600)
  • s7 hardened teeth (currently the design is nonexistent...)
Things to fix:

  • Wiring
  • Find my USB key! Sad
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Update!

  • The motor is now available for individual sale.
  • The college has facilities to machine the s7 teeth...however they won't do anything for personal use, so somehow I have to integrate it into the robotics team.
  • Haven't gotten the new RX yet...
  • My USB key is officially stolen, and I will probably never see it or the files on it again. Luckily, most of the files on it are also on the USB key I was using before that, and the solidworks doc of the tooth was in one of my emails.
  • Wiring will be worked on/done this weekend.
I discovered that one event our robotics team goes to is the gigantic worldwide competition, so I'll be going to that.

So after getting the motor esc leads back into their proper places, (one of the connectors broke in half, so connection is spotty) I tried to run the motor again. This time, I can basically guarantee it is failing because one of the leads is shorter than the others. It runs when I give full power, but stops if there is any resistance, and the cogging is very rapid and smooth, unlike before. Unfortunately, it still wouldn't power the weapon at all.

Here is the new motor it's getting:
High Performance Brushless T-Motor AT2206 1500kv

I will try my current ESC to see if it can handle the extra current of the new motor, otherwise i'mma have to do some revisions to the layout.

I completely de-weighted one of the orange RX's and wrapped the board in elec. tape, but am sad to say it still has a .5-1 second lag time between my input and its response. So, I'll just pick up an ar6115 next time I'm at the hobby store.

A small update needs to be done on the hub-bearing central assembly, I need to shave off a bit on the o-ring under the flange of the main bearing, increase the groove on the hub to 3mm or 1/8" up from 2mm, turn down the inner part of the hub so the inner races of the bearings don't scrape against them, and remove the remnants of a bearing from the hub to replace with a new one.

I found the switch, and will figure out a way to integrate it into a wiring schematic, I will update shortly on this.

As for the structural materials, I've learned polycarbonate is a very bad choice when stressed with heat. The top three alternatives are delrin, garolite, and UHMW, of which I have Delrin and UHMW.

This little sucker is going to literally become a 1 lb tornado. As was clearly demonstrated in all my videos, not once has it ever flipped, nor has it flipped off-camera either. It's run into things that are unwilling to budge and shot itself across the room, but it's never flipped. The centrifugal forces above 5k RPM have proven to make driving extremely difficult, but what was I supposed to expect from an almost levitating cylinder?



I've narrowed it down between two motors for my B1:
Tacon 3660-540L-6T Brushless Motor 4000KV
Tacon 3650-540-8.5T Sensored Brushless Motor 8.5Turn

I don't know what ESC I should get, nor which motor I should choose. I want this to be a basher that also can win races and go nice and fast, without going out of control crazy. I plan on running 2s in it for now. Also, it must be waterproof-able. So any suggestions on which motor and ESC to get?


The ESC wires have been resoldered and prepped for the micro deans, just waiting on the new weapon motor.


The switch fits perfectly!
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:36 pm

looks great camden just a few tips,

it will flip and you will want to self right it at some point in a fight Very Happy

as for that switch it will get turned off on a hard hit sometime somewhere i would consider a removable master lockout made from micro deans that would eliminate an annoying gremlin that will show its face when you least want to see it.

Otherwise your bot is starting to get really interesting i would say it looks like you still have 3 feet of wire you dont need but either way its coming along great.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:17 pm

I'm leaving some length in the wires so I can snake them around the electronics and motor area. Also, I did some testing (bashing the top plate on its side) and agree with you on the switch. adding some tape seems to hold, though I couldn't guarantee sticking. I will probably just stick with what I have. The new motor has a different footprint, so as a new baseplate, I will be testing UHMW, and possibly an aluminum/TI/Garolite configuration to help spread the heat.

Thanks for your advice Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:40 am

hopefully you wont need to use the chassis as a heatsink otherwise it would seem like the motor is working hard and drawing too much current although going to a bigger motor may help, i would try a test with the new motor along the lines of take the teeth out of the shell rev it up to full throttle and drive it into a piece of wood and see what gets hot first
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:21 pm

Nice pile o parts there, pick up an 80 watt iron and toss that usb iron also hardwire your motor save the weight of the bullet plugs.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:30 pm

The iron was a birthday present, it still works, it's just not the best Razz

Thanks for the wiring advice, i'll try to hardwire without cutting anything first, as those wires could be attached to different points on the ESC.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:00 pm

OK! I have done a preliminary solder to set up the esc and motor, and it has POWER. I can't stop it with my fingers without burning myself. The ESC is getting slightly hotter than the motor, which is right where it should be. it's rated at 200 degrees celcius.

I also noticed something REALLY strange. The negatives on the wheel motor ESC's are NOT connected to power, yet they are both functioning and the wheels are turning normally. I think I found why the electrical system is messed up. the red wire terminals are connected to the battery, but only the negative on the weapon esc is hooked up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCg7ZJoh1Ks&feature=youtu.be

The only logical way this is working is that power is going to the ESC's, and the negative lead coming out of the RX is going back through the weapon ESC, which I'm pretty sure is not good.
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:24 pm

Yes, The ground is common on the power and signal portions of the ESCs. The negative wires to the battery on the ESCs are tied to black one of PWM wires going to the RX. In the RX all of the grounds are connected together. So, you're getting the power to the Drive ESCs through the PWM wires and the RX. With drive motors that small, you may not see a problem though. After all, servos get their power in a similar way.
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:58 pm

Hopefully you're right, they can pull 1.5 Amps apiece, though, the BEC is rated at 1A.

In other news, I have a couple more micro deans on the way, with the 2 prong-2 female connections so I can charge the batteries. And, I found a nice wiring configuration: I think we have a winner! cheers


It is THE absolute WORST case scenario for a RX. Hope it holds up Razz

Now All I gotta do is redesign the baseplate to accept the ubermotor, get the ESC-RX wiring figured out, solder on micro-deans to my batteries, and get the new teeth back (I submitted a work-order for them, and the guys in the robotics team were being dicks about the legal issues my bot now has with ISU. Oh well, I don't think anybody will care. Hopefully.

One more thing: They want me to heat treat the teeth instead of them so I can mess up. Is there a specific way I can do this to get a nice N45 hardness without it being too brittle?


...Does anyone else find it a little strange that I am posting nearly day-to-day updates on everything I'm doing with my bot? No secrets here! Razz
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Evan Steeves
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:06 pm

nope nothing strange secrets dont help you or anyone the only time i keep secrets from people is when i buy more beer while my fiance goes up to her parents house Laughing

so far as heat treating goes i have only had one good item come out of at least 20 things so far i have tried to heat treat i would contact kyle for some alchemy methods his ways helped me get some 4340 bar stupid hard but it wasnt supposed to withstand impact it also depends on how you heat it and what methods you use to monitor temps and sustain temps some steel needs to be really hot for a very long time some goes quick it depends on the flavor of steel and the shape of the object.

honestly if you want some teeth hardened right shoot terry an email at team whyachi and he will help you out he makes sharp teeth for a living and knows what kind of impact robot teeth need to withstand at a minimal cost.

any idea what sort of speed increase you will be getting out of the new motor and esc too bad you dont have a tach Sad
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:59 pm

Well the new motor is 120 kv more than the old motor, on top of being more powerful, so I should see faster spinup and probably around 9k RPM, since the motor can more easily reach it's top RPM
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Camden W
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PostSubject: Re: Camden's confoundations   Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:17 pm

Update 1 of 3:



The lathe went almost as well as I could have hoped. Considering I eyed everything and turned it by hand, If you look closely you can see where the bit started to cut the lower edge, but now the o-ring i've been saving (the one that lasted the longest and stretched the best) fits darn near perfectly.



I also found a drill so bored out the inner diameter so the bearings function properly. Unfortunately, I am still unable to remove the outer race of the bottom bearing.

A perfect fits:




The new s7 teeth are milled.



They look (and feel) deadly.


I took a close look at the ESC's, and found THIS:



Could be a reason to my problem.

For the motor mount, do you think I should tap one of the holes so that it can still accept one of the bolts that is currently being used as a (wheel) or should I just have the mounting screw it came with go through? (They are the same length when mounted)

Here is a pic of potential screw location, going through the hole that would outherwise hold one of the bolts:




The wiring is complete! (Minus the other battery connector, should be here soon)

The current motor mounting predicament:


It's 95% done.


To do list:

  • Heat treat the teeth. (We have an oven and a oil bucket, I just need to research the heating parameters)
  • ensure batteries are chargeable with the same connections (micro deans, dremmeled thin)
  • Mount the motor.
In other news, I discovered that the screws that came with the motor can screw directly through the UHMW without a hole, and it's got a nice hold on the stuff.


Last edited by Camden W on Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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